Text from Perry Russo's
2nd Hypnosis Session
This is the nail in the coffin for Posner, Phelan, Kirkwood and all
the other researchers in the field who never bothered to request these pages, readily
accessible from either Garrison's files or the HSCA files.
And most disturbing of all, this is how effective
disinformation can be.
The campaign against Garrison has been so thoroughly ingrained in the
consciousness of enough people that none has bothered to examine, much less make
public this information before.
Russo was telling the true tale of what he knew, without guidance,
coercion, and with a demonstrable resistance to suggestion. Just look at how he is NOT
led, how he holds his own.
This is the bulk of the second session. I've included every reference to
Phelan and other disinformationists tend to quote this session starting
smack in the middle, where it looks like words are being put in Russo's mouth. But if one
reads the original sodium pentathol session and the first hypnotic session, you can see
the Russo clearly establishes "Bertrand"'s presence all by himself, without any
leading. So the questions in THIS session build on what was said in the two previous
sessions, and, when taken out of context, look appropriately suspicious. IN context,
however, this is just elaboration on what has been already established.
Dr. F: Let you mind go completely blank, Perry --- see that television screen again, it
is very vivid -- not notice [sic] the picture on the screen - there will be Bertrand,
Ferrie and Oswald and they are going to discuss a very important matter and there is
another man and girl there and they are talking about assassinating somebody. Look at it
and describe it to me.
[In the first session, Russo mentions Bertrand all by himself]
Q. And who all else is there?
Q. Go on and name them for me.
A. Dave and me and his roommate and some other people I have never met.
Q. Describe them for me, these other people that you've never met.
A. Well, they had this young guy Indian American (?) [sic] that's the guy he's going
with and a big guy and some Spanish guys.
Q. And what's going on now, Perry?
A. Everybody's just sitting around drinking, laughing and listening to the record
Q. What's the name of this big guy?
A. I didn't know his name when I got there.
Q. Is he a brunette or a blonde?
A. He has white hair.
Q. White hair, what is the big white-haired guy's name?
A. Dave told me his name was Clem.
A. Uh huh
Q. Clem what?
[And that is how Russo first identifies Shaw/Bertrand and later in this session puts
Shaw in the middle of the party with Ferrie talking on about the assassination and Shaw
visibly uncomfortable and asking Ferrie to get the guest to leave. I've posted most of
that in a similar thread - just wanted to post the Shaw related parts of session
"B", the second session.
So. From session "B", the second hypnotic session with Russo which builds on
data gathered from the first, here goes: ]
Dr. F.: Perry, I am going to ask you a date, as you see that date on the television
screen, lift your right index finger --- all right, I wonder what date you see?
PR: September 16
Dr. F.: I wonder what year, Perry?
PR: No year
Dr. F.: Look at the television, and a picture will come on and when the picture becomes
very vivid to you and the program begins, lift your right index finger and if you care to,
you can tell me about that picture.
PR: I see Dave Ferrie just sitting around, just talking and he asked me if I wanted a
cup of coffee or a glass of water or a Coke. I wanted water from the kitchen and ice box.
Dr. F.: Continue looking at that television picture and notice the news cast --- The
president, President Kennedy is coming to New Orleans and as you look describe it to us.
PR: I am at a school and it is late. I was going to see President Kennedy and I
remember I ran up a long ramp, an elevated incline, and I am with AL SAIZON, and we are
just waiting and Kennedy hasn't arrived. I figured we were late and we just stood and
waited, and he drove up on the ramp with sirens and started his speech.
Dr. F.: Who is that white haired gentleman that is over there looking at President
PR: He is either with the New Orleans Police Department or government because my friend
remarked about it. He said that he was the only one not looking at the president - he was
looking at us. Then AL went over to the exit. Kennedy was getting ready to finish. Al went
to the exit which is like an airplane hanger and I stayed because I was interested in
Kennedy. He talked a while to the boy and this boy left and the Secret Service man [sic]
went and talked to these other two men. All the Secret Service men had on loud coats.
Dr. F.: How about this white haired gentleman?
PR: That was him.
Dr.F Do you know his name?
Dr. F.: We are looking at the television screen again and when it is clear again your
finger will lift up. Study the picture and you are in an automobile driving into a service
station. Tell me about that program on the television.
PR: I had trouble with my car because it wouldn't start at a red light and I didn't
have any money except $4 or $5 and I just drove in and an old friend of mine came up and
he said, "you remember me?" and I said yes. These boys fixed the tire, took the
battery out, charged the battery, and I had to pay $2.50 and I left.
Dr. F.: Tell me about the white haired man sitting in that automobile over there.
PR: He is sitting with Dave and they are just talking and I interrupted their
conversation and he thought it was rude and he left. He was sitting next to Dave and I
yelled to Dave about getting the boys to hustle, I had to go because he was very ill at
ease because Dave and I were suspicious of each other.
Dr. F.: About what, Perry?
PR: He told me he was going to kill me.
Dr. F.: Why, Perry?
PR: Because I broke up he and AL
Dr. F.: Isn't there a calendar in the service station somewhere, Perry?
Dr. F.: I wonder what is the day --
Dr. F.: What is the month, Perry.
Dr. F.: And I wonder what day it is in March?
PR: I don't know.
Dr. F.: Take a look at the white haired man again in the automobile and when you see
him, lift your finger up --- Did you ever see that man before?
PR: yes - he was a friend of Dave's.
Dr. F.: Where did you see him before?
PR: At the Nashville Wharf
Dr. F.: This television screen is going to jump over again, and when it does, lift your
finger. Look at the picture now because on the screen you are in your apartment on Elysian
Fields Street and somebody is going to come in with two jungle instructors.
PR: It is Dave - It is about 1 o'clock and I laughed when I saw him because the guys
were some more of his friends and Landry told me about his friends. They were very dirty.
Dr. F.: And I wonder, Perry, what color was their hair -
PR: Black hair
Dr. F.: Both had black hair
PR: black hair.
Dr. F.: What color were their trousers, Perry?
PR: Green - green shirt
Dr. F.: Were both dressed in green?
PR: yes. Two other people were there - Al's friend from the CAP and another boy, I
never saw him before. I saw this friend in Kenner at a CAP meeting.
DR. F. Tell me more about it, Perry.
PR: Well, Dave asked me how I was doing and talked for awhile and I got introduced.
Dr. F.: I wonder, Perry, how he introduced you?
PR: As his friend.
Dr. F.: And by what name did he introduce you?
Dr. F.: And how did he introduce the others?
Dr. F.: And I wonder -- how about the other one.
PR: He was introduced the others to me [sic] -- the boy from the CAP was Tommy.
Dr. F.: This was Tommy who, Perry?
PR: Just Tommy
Dr. F.: And this was Tommy who, Perry?
PR: I was never told. Just Tommy. These guys spoke Spanish and the two boys were about
my age and we just talked and talked.
Dr. F.: Did you hear somebody mention JULIANA?
PR: I thought I did - oh, I think MANUEL called the other guy JULIANA, Julie - Spanish
- Julie - Jules - They talked in Spanish and Ferrie talked in Spanish.
Dr. F.: They were very impolite, don't you think, to talk in Spanish in front of you?
PR: I figured that was all they could speak.
Dr. F.: Continue to go deeper and deeper to sleep. You are comfortable and blank
----Look at the television screen again, picture and visualize and your finger will life
again [sic] when it is clear. That is right. A picture is going to come on and you are in
Ferrie's Apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway. Would you look at that picture and tell us
the story that you see?
PR: He introduced me to his roommate who was a kook! [sic]
Dr. F.: And, Perry, I wonder what his roommate looked like. Describe him for me.
PR: Looked like he would be about as tall as I and he had sandy brown hair, dirty white
shirt and dirty, dirty, dirty, dirty --
Dr. F.: And Perry, his name was --
Dr. F.: His last name?
Dr. F.: That is right, continue looking at the picture. Who else is in the apartment.
PR: Nobody, just me and him.
Dr. F.: Just you an -- Ferrie?
PR: and Oswald
Dr. F.: That's right, Perry, keep looking at the picture and tell me what happens.
PR: He introduced me and we talked and Ferrie came in and served coffee and I didn't
take any, and the roommate was sitting on the piano. It was closed and he just sat and
Ferrie and Leon didn't seem to get along that night.
Dr. F.: They had difference of opinion?
Dr. F.: What about, Perry?
PR: Dave never stated but I got the idea it was about a boy Dave was sleeping with and
Leon made some remarks about it and Leon objected to the boy being there.
Dr. F.: That's right, continue to go deeper and deeper - Now, picture that television
screen again, Perry, and it is a picture of Ferrie's apartment and there are several
people in there and there is a white haired man. Tell me about it.
PR: We are having a party and I cam [sic] in and everybody is drinking beer. There are
about ten of us and I am there, the roommate, Dave, some young boys and some other friends
of Dave's and I was with Sandra.
Dr. F. And what month is it?
PR: September , September 16
Dr. F.: And what year, Perry?
Dr. F.: Tell me more about that picutre. [sic]
PR: Well, there is a record player in the middle of the room and it is playing sounds,
not music - Spanish and a guy is making a speech and everybody laughed.
Dr. F.: And what did he say?
PR: He was speaking Spanish, sorta like Hitler. He got real excited.
Dr. F.: And how about the white haired man --
PR: That is a friend of Dave's
Dr. F.: His name?
PR: CLEM BERTRAND
Dr. F.: Had you seen him before?
PR: Yes, I saw him at the Nashville Street Wharf.
Dr. F.: I wonder where else
PR: No where
Dr. F.: Is that the same white haired gentleman in the service station?
PR: I don't remember the service station.
[Remember, in Perry's mind he's back in 1963, and the service station incident occurred
in 1964, so his lack of memory of this gives his whole story an added air of credibility.
He's remembering things in the proper sequence.]
Dr. F.: I wonder who that is sitting on the sofa with the rifle?
[The reference to the rifle came from when Russo first mentioned LEON in his sodium
pentathol session: "He said that he remembered Ferrie telling him that LEON was a
real nut about guns and RUSSO remembered one time as he went into the apartment, LEON was
sitting on a chair with his leg up cleaning a rifle. He said the rifle had a telescopic
sight mounted right on top of the rifle and it was a bolt-action rifle. He also said that
LEON had a pistol." - this from that OTHER Sciambra memo we never hear talk of, but
that has been in Garrison's files and the HSCA files for years now.]
Dr. F.: What is he doing with the rifle, Perry?
PR: He always had a rifle, he liked guns and may times he would have a rifle.
Dr. F.: This particular rifle - describe it for me, Perry.
PR: He is not on the sofa - on the half sofa.
Dr. F.: Tell me about the rifle - look at it - describe it for me, Perry.
PR: Long, and has wooden or plastic stock, it looks brown and it has a sight for
Dr. F.: What kind of sight?
PR: barrel type - about 8 inches long.
Dr. F.: Take a look at the gun again? Does it have a lever underneath that you put the
PR: I have a .22 and it is the same type. He offered to show it to me but I didn't care
to look at it. Same as my .22, you have to pull the bolt back and the cartridges have to
be entered from below.
Dr. F.: continue looking at the television program and Clay, the white haired man is
going to come into the room. You are at Ferrie's apartment and there are many people. Who
did he introduce Clay to?
PR: He introduced me - me to everybody
Dr. F.: How did he introduce you and exactly what did he say?
PR: Well, when I walked in everybody was excited for maybe 30 seconds or a minute than
the merriment [faded - can't read last line on bottom of page six here] just voices.
Everybody in the house was laughing and Dave said this is my friend Perry who lives on
Elysian Fields, and he introduced me to everybody.
Dr. F.: Make believe you are Ferrie introducing Perry around.
PR: I am Perry Russo --- I am Perry Russo --- I am Perry Russo --- I am Perry Russ ---
Dr. F.: Where is Juliana staying?
PR: He is in the back.
Dr. F.: And I wonder, Perry, where is Manuel?
PR: Just sitting, not standing, everybody is getting up and moving.
Dr. F.: What names did Ferrie use for the other people he introduced you to?
PR: I was shocked by the people and I don't speak Spanish. There were a couple of boys
that looked American to me and we shook hands with two or three and there is Joe and Harry
Dr. F.: Tell me where was Bertrand?
PR: Sitting on the semi-sofa
Dr. F.: I wonder, is this this [sic] the white haired man?
Dr. F.: Could you count the Cubans that are in the room for me, Perry.
Dr. F.: I wonder -- are they pro-Castro?
PR: I don't know, I didn't talk to them.
Dr. F.: Anti- Castro?
OR I didn't talk to them. -------they are in green fatigues, one in khaki pants and he
is short and strong and hefty and has on a T-shirt ---- one maybe 22 or 25 and he is
dressed in dungarees and checked yellow and red and blue lots of colors in his shirt and
there are two other men
Dr. F.: Point to where Joe is sitting for me, Perry
PR: (no response)
Dr. F.: Julian?
PR: They are up and down and everybody is moving and Manuel is there
Dr. F.: Yes, Perry, and what about the other two Cubans?
PR: Only four - Julian, Manuel and two others - everybody went to the kitchen. I drank
a Coke and the record was taken off and we sat around talking and these guys spoke
Dr. F.: Look over there, Perry, tell me what Leon is doing.
PR: He is sitting beside the piano - just sitting. He does the same thing. I don't like
him because he doesn't like me. He told Dave the first time I saw him in front of me - why
did he have to bring every little prick off the street in the house and I told Dave I
wanted to go home.
Dr. F.: Let your mind go completely blank, Perry --- see that television screen again,
it is very vivid -- not notice the picture on the screen - there will be Bertrand, Ferrie
and Oswald and they are going to discuss a very important matter and there is another man
and girl there and they are talking about assassinating somebody. Look at it and describe
it to me.
[And HERE is where those lone nut books kick in quoting the session. Posner is
particularly dishonest in his representation of how this all came about. Remember that
Perry, all by himself, first mentions that Bertrand had white kinky hair. And in his
hypnotic state, it is Perry Russo who first mentions the specific date of September 16 -
this was not given to him by the hypnotist. And it is Perry who first identifies a 'big
guy" who when asked if the big guy was a blond or brunette Perry all by himself says
the guy had white hair.
I particularly wanted to include this next part so you can see that Perry CANNOT be
influenced to say things that aren't true in his mind. When asked twice for a name Perry
doesn't know, he doesn't make one up. When asked about a meeting that hadn't happened
'yet' according to the day he was at in his mind, Perry denies remembering it. When not in
the frame of that day, he easily recalls the service station meeting with Bertrand. Anyway
- contrast what I've posted so far with how Posner represents this and you will see how
the clouds of disinformation have been keeping us from seeing the light of truth on this
all these years.]
PR: We are sitting around on the sofas and I came in late. Dave offered me a drink and
I said no I didn't want anything, and I sat down and played like I belonged. I didn't know
what was going on. Dave went and got drinks for everybody - all the drinks were coffee and
they resumed the conversation and I was just sitting. They planned to assassinate
Dr. F.: Tell us exactly what everybody said, Perry.
PR: Dave paced the floor back and forth and he talked and talked and told them if they
were to get the President they would fly to Mexico or Cuba on to Brazil and Clem said they
could not go to Mexico and Brazil - it involved too much gas expense and the cooperation
of Mexican authorities and that wouldn't be possible. Leon snapped at Bertrand and said
leave him alone. I guess Ferrie and Leon had made up and Leon said leave him alone because
he is right because if he said we go, we can do it. It doesn't make any difference, Japan
Dr. F.: I wonder what they said about Dallas, Perry?
PR: Nothing about Dallas. Ferrie had a bunch of newspaper clippings about one inch
thick all of them about Kennedy - Kennedy's picture or Kennedy's name in the headline. Had
rubber bands and clips on them and carried them around with him.
[Notice Perry does NOT say anything about Dallas - he's not just saying whatever the
Dr. F.: I wonder if Ferrie ever told you that he was going to assassinate the president
PR: He never told me that [there it is again - Perry has a mind of his own], he told me
he was going to assassinate the president and I laughed at him, but I never laughed in
front of his friends.
Dr. F.: Is Clay Bertrand the same person that you saw in the District Attorney's Office
and the same person you went to sell insurance to yesterday, Perry?
PR: Dave never took me to his house.
[Again, in Perry's mind he's still at Ferrie's house on the 16th - not in the present,
so of course the above statement is logical for Perry to make in that context.]
Dr. F.: You went to his house yesterday to sell insurance with somebody from the
District Attorney's Office, Perry. Is that the same man that was in with Ferrie and Oswald
and the same man that was at the wharf?
PR: I don't understand - Dave never showed me any places like that.
[Same here. Perry can't mentally be in the past and the present at the same time, so
the questions from the doctor make no sense in the context of his mental timeframe. So the
doctor brings him back to the present.]
Dr. F.: Now go to sleep, Perry---------- And now, Perry, I want you to see that
television screen again and when you visualize it and it is clear you will see the face of
a white haired man. You met him yesterday when you went to his apartment. This is
yesterday, the last day of February. You picture him in your mind. Have you seen him
before? Have you seen him on several occasions and what were these occasions, Perry?
PR: He was Dave's friend and I saw him at Dave's house.
Dr. F.: Where else did you see him, Perry?
PR: I saw him later at Dave's and Al's service station
Dr. F.: Where else, Perry?
PR: I saw him at the Nashville Street Wharf
Dr. F.: What is his name, Perry?
PR: CLAY BERTRAND
[there's still much more, so skipping ahead to the second to last page]:
Dr. F.: I wonder what roll [sic] Manuel could have played in the President's
PR: They don't put people in rolls.
Dr. F.: I wonder if Manuel was supposed to help in killing the president.
Dr. F.: How, Perry?
PR: He was to be the diversionary. Names were discussed as to who could do this and who
could do that. They asked questions about who could be put in that spot.
Dr. F.: I wonder, Perry, if they ever talked about anyone shooting a gun from the
school window or grassy knoll.
Dr. F.: I wonder what they talked about as to how they were going to assassinate the
PR: Dave said some one had gone up to President Eisenhower some time ago and were able
to touch him and this just goes to show you could do the job. He said there would be a
cross fire with a mob in between and if everybody was looking at the guy who is the
diversionary and made the diversionary shot, the other guy could make the good shot. One
would make the diversionary shot and the other would do the job.
Dr. F.: Who was going to be used for the diversionary shot and who for the actual shot?
PR: They never said.
Here is a witness that can't be led. Here is a witness that gave Sciambra
the details under sodium pentathol in a session with Dr. Chetta, which Sciambra recorded
separately from the other session from which Phelan's great 'find' came.
All the information that Dr. Fatter here asks about was established either
in the sodium pentathol session or the first hypnotic session. And I hope you all saw in
both of those sessions Perry identified Bertrand with no help needed.
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