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Text from Perry Russo's
Initial Hypnosis Session

From Garrison's files, these are excerpts from the transcript of the first hypnotic session. Notice - there are no leading questions pertaining to Russo's identification of Clem Bertrand. This is the FIRST hypnosis session.NOTHING relating to Clay Bertrand/Clem/Clay Shaw was omitted.

This is important because people try to discredit Russo's testimony, claiming he was led to identify Clay Shaw. Read for yourself the original session transcript and find the real history of this event.


...You are going into the time tunnel and you feel that spinning and you spin and spin and the time tunnel will throw you out September 1, 1963. September 1, 1963, it happens to be a Sunday and when the time tunnel throws you out Sunday, September 1, 1963, lift up the index finger of your right hand. Spinning and spinning and spinning, that's right now you are very comfortable in 1963.

Q: What year is it now, Perry?

A: 1963.

Q. And what month is it, Perry?

A: September

Q: What day is it, Perry?

A: 1st

Q: You will have all of the experiences that you want to on September 1, 1963. And where are you, Perry?

A: Home

Q: and what are you doing?

A: Reading

Q: And what are you reading about, Perry?

A: Plato.

Q: You continue to read Plato and enjoy it and now Perry as time goes on each day you relieve to the fullest all of your experiences and when you have met and contacted and been with any of the following people, I'd like for you to describe it completely and throughly in detail as you re-live these experiences and the people that you may have met and contacted and been with is [sic]:

LEFTY PETERSON SANDRA MOFFETT TIM KIRSCHINSTEIN GERALD KIRSCHINSTEIN KENNY CARTER AL SAISSON AL LANDRY DAVE FERRIE CLAY BERTRAND LEON OSWALD JULIAN BUZNEDO MANUEL DAVE FERRIE'S roommate

Any of these people that you contacted, tell us about and now in September the 2nd, what day is that?

A: I don't know.

Q: You go ahead and re-live all of the experiences in relationship to these people in September, 1963, and as you contact these people, lift the index finger of your right hand and tell us about it.

A: I'm home and KENNY CARTER came over EDWARD KING and SPOON and JOE COOK, they had just finished working out.

[skipping ahead past Sept 7, Sept 11, no reference to Clay Bertrand or Clay Shaw or Leon or Oswald made, to ...]

Q: And time continues to go on and what day is it now, Perry?

a: September 13.

Q: and where are you now?

A: Dave's house.

Q: And what is Dave doing?

A: Why he brought me here

Q: And who else is there?

A: Roommate

Q: And you can describe in detail the entire happening.

A: HIs roommate was sitting down when we walked in and Dave told me not to worry about him, his roommate was funny and he said this wouldn't bother me though.

Q: And I wonder what his rommate's name is.

A: Leon

Q: Leon? Does Leon have a last name?

A: Oswald

Q: And what's going on now?

A: Dave went into the kitchen to get something to drink and the place was in a wreck. I'm sitting down.

Q: Who esle is there with you?

A: Nobody.

Q: And time continues to go on, what day is it now, Perry?

A: September 16

Q: And where are you?

A: Home

Q: What day is it?

A: September 16

Q: Yes, what day of the week is it?

A: I don't know.

Q: And what are you doing now, Perry?

A: I'm waiting for Lefty. Waiting for Lefty, I'm inside apartment. I'm pissed off at Lefty because he's not here. We are suppose to go up to Dave's and he never showed up yet but he has a car.

Q: And?

A: He finally got there and then we left and we had ot [sic] got pick up Sandra and she's always late. After we picked her up we went to Dave's house.

Q: And who all else is there?

A: Everybody.

Q: Go on and name them for me.

A: Dave and me and his rommate and some other people I never met.

Q: Describe them for me, these other people that you've never met.

A: Well, they had this young guy Indian American (?) [sic] that's the guy he's going with and a big guy and some Spanish guys.

q: And what's going on now, Perry?

A: Everybody's just sitting around drinking, laughing and listening to the record player.

Q: What's the name of this big guy?

A: I didn't know his name when I got there.

Q: Is he a brunette or a blonde?

A: He has white hair.

Q: White hair, what is the big white-haired guy's name?

A: Dave told me his name was Clem.

Q: Clem?

A: Uh huh

Q: Clem what?

A: Bertrand.

Q: Look around to see if Julian is there.

A: That's one of Dave's friends.

Q: Is he there?

A: Uh huh

Q: And how about Manuel? Is he there?

A: Uh huh

Q: And what are they doing?

A: Sitting down and getting up going to the back, everybody is fooling around.

Q: I wonder what they're drinking.

A: Beer, not everybody

Q: Is is morning or evening?

A: Oh, it's late at night.

Q: About what time.

A: Lefty didn't get off till 8:00, I guess about 10:30, they don't have a clock.

Q: What is Bertrand saying?

A: Everybody is just talking and listening to records, talking and drinking, laughing. He didn't say much.

Q: Were any important people mentioned here in this conversation?

A: Presdient Kennedy.

Q: I wonder what's being said about President Kennedy?

A: Laughing and Dave has some clippings and pictures.

Q: and what is Dave doing with those clippings and pictures?

A: He has them in a foler.

Q: And who is he showing them to?

A: He's just talking and holding them up and alughs.

Q: And what is he saying?

A: "To hell with him" and laughs.

Q: He's saying "To hell with him" and laughing?

A: Uh huh

Q: And what else is he saying?

A: He's talking to everybody, everybody's talking.

Q: Wht are some of the things that are being said? Anybody that you can hear.

A: Lefty said that everybody's nuts and Sandra wants to go home.

Q: Lefty said that everybody's was nuts and Sandra wants to go home?

A: uh huh

Q: And?

A: Julian speaks English but he's not speaking English, he's speaking Spanish or some other language but it has to be Spanish and Clem is irritated by them all.

Q: Who is irritated by them all?

A: Clem

Q: Clem is irritated by them all. What is Clem saying? How does Clem express his irritation?

A: He's some important guy Dave told me and he's dressed good and the rest of them aren't dressed good. The rest of them are bums or nuts and he is the only one dressed good.

Q: And what is Clem doing now?

A: Sitting down.

Q: I wonder how angry got? [sic]

A: He got angry at all the noise. And every once in a while he would say something to Dave about it.

Q: And what is he saying to Dave?

A: Get the F----- [sic] people out of here.

Q: I wonder why?

A: He doesn't like noise.

Q: And where is Dave's roommate?

A: Ah, he's here.

Q: And what is he saying?

A: I don't know, I don't talk to him.

Q: I wonder why you don't talk to Dave's roommate?

A: He doesn't like me.

[skipping ahead to next Bertrand reference]

A: Dave says Kennedy is smart. He says he is dead or he will be dead.

Q: Where did you see Bertrand before this party?

A: Nashville.

Q: How long ago?

A: Two years.

Q: What was he doing in Nashville?

A: Just walking around.

Q: And who is he talking to at the Nashville Street Wharf?

[remember, this info came from the previous truth serum session which I published.]

A: A friend of his.

Q: Would you describe this frined of his for me?

A: He was big, but he wasn't as tall as Bertrand, he had brown or black hair, brown or so on his back.

Q: And what else is being said in Dave's apartment?

A: Everybody is leaving.

Q: Has Dave's roommate come back from the kitchen yet?

A: Uh huh.

Q: And what is he doing now?

A: He is sitting down.

Q: What does he have in his hand?

A: Nothing.

Q: And what else is Dave saying about the President Kennedy?

A: Dave says he is very smart.

Q: And what else?

A: He says smart people die, and he starts telling me all the history books and he tells me about all history and how all the smart people, like Alexander the Great, and everybody from this time die and he says Kennedy will die too.

Q: how did he sya Kennedy will die?

A: He will be shot.

Q: I wonder by whom?

A: he didn't say.

Q: Did he say when the President would be shot?

A: He says it won't be long, and I joked and called him a Criswell.

Q: What?

A: I joked and said you thing [sic] you are a Criswell or something.

Q: And?

A: And he laughed and he asid it won't be long. Mark my words.

Q: Is Bertrand still there?

A: He stayed after everybody left.

Q: Did Bertrand hear this too?

Uh huh/ They got into a big argument.

Q: And what were they saying in this argument?

A: This was before, because Bertrand was pissed-off at everybody being there and I don't think he likes me either.

Q: I wonder why Bertrand doesn't like you?

A: Cause he kept telling Ferrie why all these people were here and I just figured he meant me and Sandra.

Q: Are you leaving the aprtment now?

A: No.

Qa: Well, tell me what else is going on.

A: Everybody is gone.

Q: Who left? [sic]

A: The young boys, all the Spanish guys, except Julian. He said he would be back, and Sandra left and me stayed.

Q: And where are you?

A: Sitting down.

Q: And who else is in the apartment?

A: Clem, Leon, Dave, Lefty, Sandra, and one of the guys is trying to put the make on Sandra.

Q: What is he telling Sandra?

A: he tried all during the party. Sitting over in the corner.

Q: Describe him for me. Take a good look at him. Start at the top of his head and describe him.

A: He is dirty. He has brown hair and he's got a beard on, old dirty clothes and rubber tennis shoes.

Q: How tall would you say he was?

A: He's shorter than Clem

Q: Shorter than who?

A: Clem. Oh, 5'10" or 11".

Q: 5'10" or 11".

A: right.

Q: I wonder how heavy is Dave's roommate's beard? Take a good look at it and tell me. Is it bbeard or hair?

A: The guys at school call it a beard, but they just haven't shaved.

Q: I wonder where Dave's roommate comes from?

A: I don't know, Dave never told me.

Q: Is the rommate married?

A: He was.

Q: Who was he married to?

A: Margerite [sic].

Q: I wonder how you come to find out how Dave's rommate was married and his wife's name was Margerite?

A: Dave told me when we drove up.

Q: Is there a rifle or a pistol in the room? Take a good look and see.

A: The place is in a wreck. Everything is upside down and moved around.

Q: Look around and see if there is a rifle or pistol present.

A: Thee was one.

Q: What was it, a pisto or a rifle?

A: A rifle.

Q: Take a look at the rifle and describe it.

A: It's not here right now.

Q: Where did you see it?

A: When I first met the roommate.

[skipping ahead to next reference to Bertrand - p. 14]

Q: And go deeper into the sleep deeper and deeper. We are going back again to September 16. We are going all the way back to Septmember 16. If you were in Dave's apartment, life up the index finger. If the conversation was about President Kennedy, I would like for you to listen to their conversation and tell us every word that was spoken. And who spoke the words?

A: Dave did most of the talking. Dave and Clem and Leon they didn't do much talking. Dave did most of the talking.

Q: Yes

A: Dave did most of the talking. All the stuff he said before and more of the same stuff. He said it was so easy to do it and said if ew did it we would need three people at three different locations in a crossfire and I left in time before and you have to get out and you have to make sure you get out of the confusion and be able to leave and the easiest way to get out is to fly. He said he could fly. He could fly to Cuba or to fly to Mexico and then on to Brazil and then Clem got pissed off and he said you couldn't fly to Mexico and then on to Brazil because he said that if you had a big airplane with a lot of gasoline, the authorities in Texas would stop you.

Q: Who is saying that?

A: Clem. He said you have to fly to Cuba.

Q: Is that Clem Bertrand?

A: Uh huh.

Q: Yes.

A: And the roommmate got pissed off and everybody is pissed off. I don't think he likes Clem. He didn't like anybody.

Q: I wonder why he didn't like Clem?

A: I think they wre "mothers", Ferrie and the rommmate, he used to make Ferrie feel good.

Q: I wonder what was said of a diversonary [sic] shot?

A: He had three men at the crossfire. One of them was the key, and two is diversonary [sic] or one is diversonary [sic] and one man to be sacrificed.

Q: Who did they say had to be sacrificed?

A: One man.

Q: Was that man there? I wonder where they were going to get ht emoney to do this with?

A: Clem. He's got money.

Q: Are you saying that Clem is going to finance this?

A: No.

Q: How do you know that Clem is going to finance this?

A: I don't, but he was the only one there who had money becasue he dressed good.

Q: And now, Perry, I'd like for you to go back and listen to Clem Bertrand talking and as you listen to Clem Bertrand talking, relay to me what Clem Bertrand says.

A: He's arguing with Ferrie. He's mad. And he asked Ferrie, do you want this to be successful or you don't. i am going to leave it up to you or I'll pull our [sic] of this althogether and Ferrie says he knows what he is doing. He will handle this and he will do the flying. He said he was talking up the wrong street because you don't know what you are talking about anyway and the rommate told Clem to shut up. he said he didn't know what he was talking about. He said let him handle it. Clem says he's a washed-out pot [sic] and Ferrie got real mad cause Ferrie really shows it when he is mad.

Q: Yes. And then?

A: And Ferrie said whoever is elected, the rest will either have to disappear or move out and establish alibis. They have to be seen and they have to be in public. And Clem says I know where I'll be.

Q: Yes.

A: Ferrie says I will be making a peech on the day of the assassination. I plan to make a speech or something.

Q: Yes. I wonder where Leon siad he would make a speech that day?

A: No, Ferrie.

Q: Ferrie was going to make a speech? I wonder where?

A: College, at Souteastern.

Q: At Southeastern?

A: A speech or something.

Q: Did Clem say where he was going to be on the day of the assassination?

A: He said he would be traveling. Clem's going to go to the coast.

Q: Yes. You can go ahead. And Clem was going to be where?

A: He was going to go to the coast. On business.

Q: What kind of business?

A: Just company, I guess.

Q: That's right, go deeper and deeper relaxed. We're going back now to September 28. When you get to September 28, the index finger on your right hand will lift. Now where are you?

A: At Dave's.

Q: Who's there? What's his rommate's name? Who?

A: Leon.

Q: You are very deeply relaxed. Was Leon supposed to leave that day?

A: What day?

Q: The 28th day of September.

A: He said he was going home.

Q: Where is his home?

A: I don't know.

Q: He was going home on the [faded here but guessing from earlier exchange for next word before the quesiton mark] bus?

A: Uh huh.

Q: Deeper relaxed. And [faded] going in time until we get to October 7, 1963. [faded] you get to October 7, lift up your index finger. Had Dave's roommate been out of the country?

A: That's what Dave said.

Q: Where was he?

A: Mexico.

Q: What day did Dave say he went down to Mexico?

A: End of September.

Q: And when did he return?

A: He didn't say.

Q: i wonder what he went to Mexico for?

A: He didn't say.

[end of session text as Perry is brought out of trance.]


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